Ted Kennedy wants to ban all FMJ Center fire ammunition
 

At least that is what this bill looks like to me, IE anything that will penetrate body armor.

Not just Armor Piercing ammo but anything that will pass through armor a average cop would wear.

And .223 and 7.62 x 51 and 7.62x39 and anything else that is FMJ would do this in my understanding.

Stock up people.



Ted Kennedy's 30-30 comments
AMENDMENT NO. 2619

Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. President, I understand we have a half an hour; is that correct?

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Senator is correct.

Mr. KENNEDY. I yield myself 15 minutes.

The PRESIDING OFFICER. Does the Senator wish to send the amendment to the desk?

Mr. KENNEDY. I believe the amendment is at the desk.

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The clerk will report.

The assistant legislative clerk read as follows:


The Senator from Massachusetts [Mr. KENNEDY] proposes an amendment numbered 2619.


Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. President, I ask unanimous consent that reading of the amendment be dispensed with.

The PRESIDING OFFICER. Without objection, it is so ordered.

The amendment is as follows:

(Purpose: To expand the definition of armor piercing ammunition and to require the Attorney General to promulgate standards for the uniform testing of projectiles against body armor)
On page 11, after line 19, add the following:

SEC. 5. ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION.

(a) EXPANSION OF DEFINITION OF ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION.--Section 921(a)(17)(B) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

(1) in clause (i), by striking ``or'' at the end;

(2) in clause (ii), by striking the period at the end and inserting a semicolon; and

(3) by adding at the end the following:

``(iii) a projectile that may be used in a handgun and that the Attorney General determines, pursuant to section 926(d), to be capable of penetrating body armor; or

``(iv) a projectile for a centerfire rifle, designed or marketed as having armor piercing capability, that the Attorney General determines, pursuant to section 926(d), to be more likely to penetrate body armor than standard ammunition of the same caliber.''.

(b) DETERMINATION OF THE CAPABILITY OF PROJECTILES TO PENETRATE BODY ARMOR.--Section 926 of title 18, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following:

``(d)(1) Not later than 1 year after the date of enactment of this subsection, the Attorney General shall promulgate standards for the uniform testing of projectiles against Body Armor Exemplar.

``(2) The standards promulgated pursuant to paragraph (1) shall take into account, among other factors, variations in performance that are related to the length of the barrel of the handgun or centerfire rifle from which the projectile is fired and the amount and kind of powder used to propel the projectile.

``(3) As used in paragraph (1), the term `Body Armor Exemplar' means body armor that the Attorney General determines meets minimum standards for the protection of law enforcement officers.''.


Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. President, I mentioned that there had been a homicide in Massachusetts recently, over 18 months. It was juvenile homicide. I ask that the Record be so corrected.

As we all know too well, the debate about gun violence has often been aggressive and polarizing with anti-gun violence advocates on one side of the debate, pro-gun advocates on the other. There are deep divisions in the country on the issue of gun safety, and the current debate on the gun immunity bill has thus far only served to highlight those divisions.

I believe, however, that there are still some principles on which we can all agree. One principle is that we should do everything we can to protect the lives and safety of police officers who are working to protect our streets, schools, and communities.

The amendment I am offering today is intended to close the existing loopholes in the Federal law that bans cop-killer bullets. Police officers depend on body armor for their lives. Body armor has saved thousands of police officers from death or serious injury by firearm assault. Most police officers who serve large jurisdictions wear armor at all times when on duty. Nevertheless, even with body armor, too many police officers remain vulnerable to gun violence.

According to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, every year between 50 and 80 police officers are feloniously killed in the line of duty. In 2002, firearms were used in 51 of the 56 murders of police officers. In those shootings, 34 of the officers were wearing body armor at the time of their deaths. From 1992 to 2002, at least 20 police officers were killed after bullets penetrated their armor vests and entered their upper torso.

Some gun organizations have argued that cop-killer bullets are a myth. The families of these slain police officers know better. In fact, we know that armor-piercing ammunition is not a myth because it is openly and notoriously marketed and sold by gun dealers.

I direct my colleagues' attention to the Web site of Hi-Vel, Incorporated, a self-described exotic products distributor and manufacturer in Delta, UT. You can access its online catalog on the Internet right now. Hi-Vel's catalog lists an entry for armor-piercing ammunition. On that page you will find a listing for armor-piercing bullets that can penetrate metal objects. The bullets are available in packages of 10 for $9.95 each. Hi-Vel carries armor-piercing bullets for both the .223 caliber rifles such as the Bushmaster sniper rifle used in the Washington area attacks in October 2002, and the 7.62 caliber assault weapons. Over the past 10 years, these two caliber weapons were responsible for the deaths of 14 of the 20 law enforcement officers killed by ammunition that penetrated body armor.

In a recent report, the ATF identified three, .223 and the 7.62 caliber rifles, as the ones most frequently encountered by police officers. These high-capacity rifles, the ATF wrote, pose an enhanced threat to law enforcement, in part because of their ability to expel particles at velocities that are capable of penetrating the type of soft body armor typically worn by law enforcement officers.

Another rifle caliber, the 30.30 caliber, was responsible for penetrating three officers' armor and killing them in 1993, 1996, and 2002. This ammunition is also capable of puncturing light-armored vehicles, ballistic or armored glass, armored limousines, even a 600-pound safe with 600 pounds of safe armor plating.

It is outrageous and unconscionable that such ammunition continues to be sold in the United States of America. Armor-piercing ammunition for rifles and assault weapons is virtually unregulated in the United States. A Federal license is not required to sell such ammunition unless firearms are sold as well. Anyone over the age of 18 may purchase this ammunition without a background check. There is no Federal minimum age of possession. Purchases may be made over the counter, by mail order, by fax, by Internet, and there is

[Page: S1635] GPO's PDF
no Federal requirement that dealers retain sales records.
In 1999, investigators for the General Accounting Office went undercover to assess the availability of .50 caliber armor-piercing ammunition. Purchasing cop-killer bullets, it turned out, is only slightly more difficult than buying a lottery ticket or a gallon of milk. Dealers in Delaware, Pennsylvania, and West Virginia informed the investigators that the purchase of these kinds of ammunition is subject to no Federal, State, or local restrictions. Dealers in Alaska, Nebraska, and Oregon who advertised over the Internet told an undercover agent that he could buy the ammunition in a matter of minutes, even after he said he wanted the bullets shipped to Washington, DC, and needed them to pierce an armored limousine or theoretically take down a helicopter. Talk about homeland security.

In a single year, over 100,000 rounds of military surplus armor-piercing ammunition were sold to civilians in the United States. In addition, the gun manufacturer, Smith & Wesson, recently introduced a powerful new revolver, the .500 magnum, 4 1/2 pounds, 15 inches long, that clearly has the capability of piercing body armor using ammunition allowed under the current law.

The publication, Gun Week, reviewed the new weapon with enthusiasm: ``Behold the magic, feel the power,'' it wrote.


Many of our leaders will buy the Smith & Wesson .500 Magnum for the same reason that Edmund Hillary climbed Mt. Everest: Because it is there.


Current Federal law bans certain armor-piercing ammunition for handguns. It establishes a content-based standard. It covers ammunition that is, first of all, constructed from tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium, copper, or depleted uranium or, secondly, larger than .22 caliber with a jacket that weighs no more than 25 percent of the total weight of the bullet.

However, there are no restrictions on ammunition that may be manufactured from other materials but can still penetrate body armor. Even more important, there are no restrictions on armor-piercing ammunition used in rifles and assault weapons. Armor-piercing ammunition has no purpose other than penetrating bulletproof vests. It is of no use for hunting or self-defense. Such armor-piercing ammunition has no place in our society--none.

Armor-piercing bullets that sidestep the Federal ban, such as that advertised on Hi-Vel's Web site, put the lives of American citizens and those sworn to defend American citizens in jeopardy every single day. We know the terrorists are now exploiting the weaknesses and loopholes in our gun laws. The terrorists training manual discovered by American soldiers in Afghanistan in 2001 advised al-Qaida operatives to buy assault weapons in the United States and use them against us.

Terrorists are bent on exploiting weaknesses in our gun laws. Just think of what a terrorist could do with a sniper rifle and only a moderate supply of armor-piercing ammunition.

My amendment amends the Federal ban on cop-killer bullets to include a performance standard and extends the ban on centerfire rifles, which include the sniper rifles and assault weapons responsible for the deaths of 17 police officers whose body armor was penetrated by this ammunition.

My amendment will not apply to ammunition that is now routinely used in hunting rifles or other centerfire rifles. To the contrary, it only covers ammunition that is designed or marketed as having armor-piercing capability. That is it--designed or marketed as having armor-piercing capability, such as armor-piercing ammunition that is now advertised on the Hi-Vel Web site.

Bullets that are designed or marketed to be armor piercing have no place in our society. Ducks, deer, and other wildlife do not wear body armor. Police officers do. We should not let another day pass without plugging the loopholes in the Federal law that bans cop-killer bullets.

This is an issue on which mainstream gun owners and gun safety advocates can agree. I urge my colleagues to vote in support of this amendment.

I reserve the remainder of my time.

Re: Ted Kennedy wants to ban all FMJ Center fire ammunition
 

This guy well not just go away

Re: Ted Kennedy wants to ban all FMJ Center fire ammunition
 

Re: Ted Kennedy wants to ban all FMJ Center fire ammunition
 

This was being discussed in Feb-March of 2004...

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=67778

Anything new on re-introducing it, or is this speculation? I see that Barrack Obama then had supported this Kennedy legislation ... to call a vintage hunting caliber (.30-30 Winchester) that was introduced in 1894 "for the purposes of penetrating body armor with no sporting use."

http://obamagun.blogspot.com/2008/08...-used-for.html

This is spooky and crazy stuff Obama will buy, and tells me it's reason for some concern indeed... "Bullets that are designed or marketed to be armor piercing have no place in our society. Ducks, deer, and other wildlife do not wear body armor. Police officers do. "

And yet according to the "100 Most Dangerous Jobs In America" a convenience store clerk is more likely to be killed by a gun than a police officer. Who's helping to arm them for protection?

Re: Ted Kennedy wants to ban all FMJ Center fire ammunition
 

I don't think you have to worry much about Teddy. He's harboring a grapefruit in his skull. He's got bigger things on his mind like pitch forks. His past driving problems have created an afterlife payday a coming. He doesn't have enough money to light enough church candles to get him off that hook.

Re: Ted Kennedy wants to ban all FMJ Center fire ammunition
 

Re: Ted Kennedy wants to ban all FMJ Center fire ammunition
 

You know we are up the creek, when .30-30 ammo gets the "cop-killer" label!

Re: Ted Kennedy wants to ban all FMJ Center fire ammunition
 

Re: Ted Kennedy wants to ban all FMJ Center fire ammunition
 

I wouldn't normally joke about someone's medical condition, but very few people deserve a tumor more than Teddy. Besides his irrational hatred of all things firearms related, he is responsible for the "Let Everyone in Our Country" Act of 1965, secret meetings with KGB agents, and of course, his Buick diving skills are legendary.

Re: Ted Kennedy wants to ban all FMJ Center fire ammunition
 

Good things happen to good people.....

I have a warm feeling for Teddy.

Re: Ted Kennedy wants to ban all FMJ Center fire ammunition
 

Re: Ted Kennedy wants to ban all FMJ Center fire ammunition
 

IF is all ya got....then you have lost the battle and the war of guns and liberty.

I'M so damn tired of the stock up mentality. Get your asses on their doorsteps get your faces in their faces.

God damn the Gay Left have more protesting balls than the gun crowd......and THAT is why we are failing!!!!!!!

Re: Ted Kennedy wants to ban all FMJ Center fire ammunition
 

Have multiple Gunowners cross state line with Firearms.......AND THEY KNOW ABOUT IT.

See what BATF Dose.


T

Re: Ted Kennedy wants to ban all FMJ Center fire ammunition
 

Will he just die already....

Re: Ted Kennedy wants to ban all FMJ Center fire ammunition
 

Re: Ted Kennedy wants to ban all FMJ Center fire ammunition
 

What you want is the Wolf "Military Classic" for armor piercing ammo (AP_). The hollow point 7.62x39 is a round designed for hunting, not armor penetration.

Re: Ted Kennedy wants to ban all FMJ Center fire ammunition
 

Maybe they will kill him off now and the bill will be passed in his "memory". LOL :thumb.aspx:

Re: Ted Kennedy wants to ban all FMJ Center fire ammunition
 

Wow...so this is about the deaths of 20 police over 10 years?

A Bushmaster "sniper rifle" LOL.

Also notice he says 7.62 and doesn't specify 51 or 39. So in reality this is 3 calibers, the three most often used calibers at that.

Makes me sick...

Re: Ted Kennedy wants to ban all FMJ Center fire ammunition
 

gun do not kill , people kill people , if i wanted someone dead there a million way to kill some one with out a gun

Re: Ted Kennedy wants to ban all FMJ Center fire ammunition
 

I noticed that too .....he was quoting figures from the late 90's- early 00's

It is apparent he didnt have any recent data to dig up on the Gun community to put us in a nasty light . So he had the scrape the bottom of the barrel for stats from 10-15 years ago.

Prick.


T

Re: Ted Kennedy wants to ban all FMJ Center fire ammunition
 

No what you want is that glorious chinese FMJ - AP...That stuff will punch holes in 1/4 steel like a paper punch on paper. It's out there...not much around... pick up a few strippers...it will make you happier then tuckin' dollar bills in a titty bar.

Re: Ted Kennedy wants to ban all FMJ Center fire ammunition
 

Re: Ted Kennedy wants to ban all FMJ Center fire ammunition
 

The chinese vintage copper-washed (no jacket) steel AK round is only MILD STEEL, made for economy, that is cut by the riflings and has no jacket, the Wolf FMJ actually have a Hollow Tip (a void under the tip) even if the hollow void is not seen, as in the tiny Hollow Point 'hunting' versions... the tip caves in quickly and the bullet YAWS as it penetrates, it also yaws because it is made to be tail-heavy and thereby to swap ends in passage ... get it? OUCH! ... but NOT what I call REAL AP...

:36_1_30:This below, this is good ol' USA or Israeli military AP stuff... .308 or 7.62 NATO jacketed lead with Tungsten Carbide Cores... black tips ... tested on vintage WW2 halftrack armor it zips right through, same on almost any 1/2" steel plate or even a manhole cover ... the REAL DEAL! get em while you CAN!

Re: Ted Kennedy wants to ban all FMJ Center fire ammunition
 

Re: Ted Kennedy wants to ban all FMJ Center fire ammunition
 

Funny thing is .50 bmg AP is cheaper and easier to find than .30 cal.

Re: Ted Kennedy wants to ban all FMJ Center fire ammunition
 

Re: Ted Kennedy wants to ban all FMJ Center fire ammunition
 

I used to beleive that the good cops and the good old gubermint will protect you when you need them the most.

Can you imagine the senator, Ted Kennedy being in the taj hotel in mumbai? The gays and lesbians can show all their love to the politically correct.

I think everyone should have guns and be openly carrying it., paticularly in private property.

Re: Ted Kennedy wants to ban all FMJ Center fire ammunition
 

Today, in celebration and honor of Ted Kennedy, I have acquired a 30.06 to celebrate the 2nd amendment in truth and honor.

HEY, Teddy, read the constitution from time to time, you might learn something.

Re: Ted Kennedy wants to ban all FMJ Center fire ammunition
 

I've got a better idea....make better body armor!

My $.02

Re: Ted Kennedy wants to ban all FMJ Center fire ammunition
 

That's been on the US military's agenda, and their current body armor does a good job against intermediate calibers like 7.62x39 (which is why it's mystifying to see people amassing it for potential conflict with US troops). China responded with their 5.8x42 system, which has AP features designed specifically against US body armor. Of course, chances are low that anyone in the US will be able to get some anytime soon, and for more reasons than one.

Re: Ted Kennedy wants to ban all FMJ Center fire ammunition
 

7.62 will work just fine..... for two reasons.

1)The State and Feds are THE CHEAPEST BASTARDS AROUND IN TERMS OF QUALITY they dont care about introducing cutting edge tech what is MOST imporatant to them is NOT the life of the agent But the LIFE OF THE SERVICE CONTRACT. as long as the crontract is in place they will continue to put out absolute garbarge....... Remember Wars are not about WINNING wars are about BUSINESS..

2) Who said to aim center mass?? Blow out feet, kneecaps and aim for the thigh/pelvic region one bullet just GRAZES that zone and taps the femoral artery you will bleed out in about 90 seconds.


7.62 will get the job done if it ever comes to that

Re: Ted Kennedy wants to ban all FMJ Center fire ammunition
 

You must not know what kind of body armor they wear these days.....

It protects the torso, to include the shoulders and armpits, and a full groin pad. Also the plates have gone through multiple upgrades. The current armor can take a direct hit from a 7.62 NATO round from close range without any chance of penetration.

There are many new forms of armor currently in the acquisition cycle (which has picked up a lot of speed since the beginning of the Iraq War).

Also the new Kevlar helmets are half the weight of the older versions and much stronger.....

Be careful if you go up against anyone wearing USA gear. Head shot is the best way to go.:565:

Re: Ted Kennedy wants to ban all FMJ Center fire ammunition
 

My solution? Tungsten Carbide SLAP rounds in 7.62x25 Tok. AK with FMJ hosing bullets at extremities for anything that won't stop. And SLAP rounds for the M1903.

Goddamn is carbide expensive though. Grinding them to shape isn't exactly easy either.

Re: Ted Kennedy wants to ban all FMJ Center fire ammunition
 

How does modern body armor stand up to Molotov cocktails?

Re: Ted Kennedy wants to ban all FMJ Center fire ammunition
 

Only the plates will stop the rifle rounds. You don't wear plates on the shoulder, armpits, and groin area. At least in the current armor that they are wearing. Dragon Skin is much better, but currently the military is not wearing it, the last time I read.

Re: Ted Kennedy wants to ban all FMJ Center fire ammunition
 

Well, I am not sure how filling the coffers feeds into it... If you ban the ammo, then you lose the tax revenue that was due on the ammo.

Ol' Teddy is not much long for the Senate (and he knows it) and not much long for this world (and he knows it). Hopefuly he will get bounced somehow from the Senate and start drooling like a carrot or cucumber, thus taking away all his stroke in office or out of office.
At that point, MAssachusetts at least has a ghost of a chance to start un-doiing all th ebad anti-gun legislation that they have in thier welfare state.
They might even be able to get rid of some of thier welfare programs and get Massachusetts off the dole and back to work.

Re: Ted Kennedy wants to ban all FMJ Center fire ammunition
 

The REAL REAL funny thing is that ANY ammo fired from 50 cal will swiss cheese a vest... I bet a hard plastic round from a 50 would punch a vest.

Re: Ted Kennedy wants to ban all FMJ Center fire ammunition
 

Uh, crossing a state line with a firearm is not against the law... so... the ATF would do nothing...